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Desiree Duncan (00:01.117)

Welcome everyone to the No Normal Show brought to you by BPD. This is where we leave all things status quo, traditional, old school, and boring and the dust and celebrate the new, the powerful, the innovative, the future, all related to how brands can lead the way in health. I'm Desiree Duncan, Vice President of Health Equity Inclusion at BPD, and I'll be your host for today. In this episode, I'm excited to be joined by Ann Denapoli -Blach, Managing Director of Data Solutions and Analytics, and Mindy Adams, Chief Creative Officer

both from BPD. In this episode, we'll dive more into that precision marketing we've been talking about and how we can use creativity to leverage its power. So excited to have you both back on. I know we've been talking about different things each time we've had you on, but glad to have you back Anna Mindy.

Anne DiNapoli Block (00:49.019)

Thanks, Des. So happy to be here today.

Desiree Duncan (00:51.975)

Yeah, yeah, you guys are kind of a little dynamic duo. I know, and you've been talking specifically about the precision marketing and then Mindy, we've been talking about like, what can we do with creativity and brand and all the good things? And now we're going to mesh the two together, but kind of curious, what have you seen out in the world that has been a data that has influenced creativity that's been really cool and some of the cool activations you've seen out in the world?

Mindy Adams (01:22.646)

Yeah, for sure. There's one campaign that I think everyone really has grown to look forward to and anticipate, and that's the Spotify RAPT. I know we all look forward to what was RAPT, what our year looks like, and if we don't share it, it didn't happen. But they did an amazing job of literally leaning into the data to show off their listeners. So they would put...

faces across high traffic areas and their wrapped playlists, which is just incredible. But I think the success there is leading into the data, of course, to tell stories, but the way that folks have just leaned in and shared and become advocates for that whole initiative for Spotify. So it's pretty cool. Similarly, I'd be remiss to not talk about Google's Year in Search. It's so beautiful every year. And it becomes like this pop culture time capsule. Like, what did we all search for?

every year and I just really look forward to it. know others do too, but again, like leaning directly into the data, putting it on a pedestal and leaning in, it's pretty

Desiree Duncan (02:21.801)

You're right, the Spotify rap, it's like some people enjoy it and then there's some like negative Nancy's who are like, no one cares. I'm like, just let us have fun and enjoy and see what we really stand this past year. And like for me, I know I look at it I'm like, these are all like older songs, like nothing new. But from the design of it, I'm kind of curious because like, yes, it's pulling the data and

Mindy Adams (02:27.33)

Yes.

Desiree Duncan (02:49.425)

A lot of it can be similar. It's a familiar look, but of course you're generating it based off of the existing data for that individual that I have always found so cool. And do you feel like it was some of the earlier versions of generative AI that we've seen in market?

Mindy Adams (03:09.62)

That's an interesting question. I've never really thought about it before. But yeah, data has always been in the background. It's always been, you know, quietly informing all that we do. And that was the first time like, yeah, and that real time awesomeness right out there for everyone to see. You're right. I hadn't really thought about it that way, but it could have been one of the first two markets.

Anne DiNapoli Block (03:28.431)

Yeah, think, mean, honestly, just seeing the executions, could be a lot of machine learning on the background and that could be fueled by AI potentially, but the way that they're able to personalize it all so much, there's got to be some data science fueling, which is, I think, what makes it so successful.

Desiree Duncan (03:46.483)

Yeah. Yeah.

Desiree Duncan (03:52.863)

I agree. So, what has been some really cool activations you've seen where data and creativity melded?

Anne DiNapoli Block (04:01.329)

So I am a retail background person, which we've talked about on this show a lot. So I always lean towards really retail examples. I love Ulta, all the things that the brand puts out. I think that they do such an amazing job utilizing their customer loyalty data to serve very personalized advertising across the board.

It's in this very good storytelling approach sometimes. think last year they even took it as far as to launch like a joy project where they were utilizing third party research to increase the amount of joy that people were feeling in general, especially as it related to their beauty efforts. I just think, you know, I mean, and I could talk all day about executions and

how they have blended experience with store experience and advertising. And I think that is just to me, the perfect marriage of how creativity can come to life with the smartest right data and really leaning into also areas like inclusion and that and really making it part of a consumer benefit. So that's a great example. And then,

you know, I think we all live and breathe Amazon too much sometimes. I was at the beach this weekend for my birthday and this morning I opened my homepage to order something for my kid and they served up bathing suit ads to me. I didn't need a bathing suit, but did I look? I know I looked and I have three in my cart that I don't need, but it works magically. they just know me more than I know myself. So.

Desiree Duncan (05:41.831)

How dare they.

Mindy Adams (05:42.807)

you

Desiree Duncan (05:53.149)

all that great listening to us on our devices.

Anne DiNapoli Block (05:56.527)

Yes, that's all the creepy data.

Desiree Duncan (05:59.647)

But yeah, you're right. With retail, it is kind of top of mind because that's something that we experience every day, whether we need it or not. It's a part of all of our lives. Similarly, health care is as well, but it's kind of that other, we don't really talk about it. We don't actually engage with it until we absolutely have to. But kind of curious, knowing that that'll be our focus, thinking about the things that

part of our everyday lives. If you could though, just give us for those that may not have heard you on the show before, give a quick overview of our precision marketing.

Anne DiNapoli Block (06:38.149)

Yeah, absolutely. So precision marketing at BPD and for healthcare is really taking dedicated consumer lists that have high propensity to need certain services or have physician provider encounters and targeting them with the right message in all the right channels and really largely at the right time.

the whole goal to drive patient experience and value into our healthcare system. So we have been able to deploy Precision now for five plus years and are working on a very robust roadmap to continue to enhance the data, make it smarter. And Mindy and I are here today to also talk through creatively what are the big opportunities as we deploy.

more data to access the right types of patients for precision.

Desiree Duncan (07:35.441)

love that. for those that are, I guess, learners or like they kind of need more of a picture painter for them, can you share some examples of where we have used this with some of our clients in the past?

Anne DiNapoli Block (07:50.393)

Yeah, absolutely. So, and this is actually a great example from when we were in Vegas at HMPS. So we actually took the stage with our client from Adventist Health and really talked through a great example of needing to drive volumes to an orthopedic service line in one of their markets. And we deployed an audience -based approach with these consumer database lists and really reaching folks

and serving creative up to them that really resonated. So if you needed a joint replacement for a knee or a hip, but really truly, it was more to just stay active and you're in that younger age range and potentially, you you had just experienced some type of onset of a really critical need. We really had creative served up to that example. And then, you know, older patients who maybe

been immobile because of their joint issues for some time, serving up messaging that really sparked them to take action because really the benefit of what a joint replacement could be for them. So we talked through that example, but we deploy precision across really truly more than 20 plus service lines for our clients all across the country. So lots and lots of use cases, which is really exciting. And I think

the investment of this marketing. And I've talked about it on this show before, but the value of it is really being able to show the advertising, understand the exposures to these lists, and then really be able to measure the marketing impact at the end of the day. Everything's all about high return, high ROI. We really try to achieve, you know, six, 10, 20 time ROI for our clients.

with this type of marketing. it just shows the effectiveness of what these personalized messages can do.

Desiree Duncan (09:50.78)

of that.

Mindy Adams (09:52.694)

There was a campaign for AdventHealth ER. I don't even think we'd like to talk about the number because it's so unreal to hear. But incredibly successful campaign for AdventHealth ER where we were literally talking to 11 different segments across six months and there were more than 300 creative executions. It just shows how fast and efficient we can be and how personalized we can be to reach those folks. I don't know, if we can speak to the actual results of that ER campaign. I'll let

Say that out loud.

Anne DiNapoli Block (10:21.425)

Yeah, well, the good news is it's rolling, right? And every quarter and every few months, that client is tracking the success. And we have been able to report, in some instances, 50 -time ROI. And those are all incremental visits, if somebody's considered. We're tracking new patients versus existing patients as well, which is really.

meet to be able to see the impact of what these really personalized messages can do in driving folks to the right places to seek the services.

Desiree Duncan (10:56.701)

Yeah. So this is excellent in thinking about what that ROI is for this type of technology. But in thinking about what does this look like and feel like on the other side, like where the consumer, the patient is seeing this. Mindy, would love your thoughts on how the creativity comes to life when we're feeding these ads and providing more of a personalized experience.

Mindy Adams (11:22.956)

Yeah, that's what's so special and exciting about precision marketing. When we talk about mass media, we're throwing out a message to thousands, millions of folks. Precision is the exact opposite of that formula. We know motivators. We know exactly what you need. And the really cool part is we don't have just one way to get to you. We have the opportunity to craft the message in so many different ways to drive the one action that we're looking for. And we can iterate real time over time. And we get that real time response, which is so awesome.

understand what is hitting, what is resonating, what is driving these folks. And ultimately at the end of the day, we really just want them to get to the healthcare that they need. And we have lots of cool ways to do

Desiree Duncan (12:05.083)

of that. thinking about the perceptions of all of this where you're blending marketing and creativity and all that good stuff, just kind of curious, like what's your thinking, your philosophy behind all of

Mindy Adams (12:19.094)

Yeah, there is a perception that precision marketing is not creative. I could not disagree more. We talked about at the top of the show, data -driven campaigns that were so emotional and so creative and beautiful. And that's our ambition here. Very different approach, of course. But there's so much creativity in how we craft that message. Again, it's thinking very in geeky ways about a type and photography and the way those things come together. And again, it's not just one way. We're dreaming up so many different

to meet these folks, understanding who they are and what they need. So the opportunity for creativity is incredibly vast. And again, we learn real time over time so we can continue to populate more and more. That's the exciting part. We get to create more messages with creative ingredients than we do for any other type of marketing that we create.

Desiree Duncan (13:09.995)

You make a great point in the sense of, like we've been hearing for years, like data -driven and data is king and all of this great stuff, but what are you doing with all of that data? And in a way, this is a version of almost humanizing it. So know that in our conversations, you've talked a little bit about how art and science work together. I'd love for you to share your thoughts on

Mindy Adams (13:24.791)

Yeah, totally.

Mindy Adams (13:37.63)

Yeah, this is the perfect and you said, and I are a dynamic duo. We have a long history of doing this together. I really value the science and Anne really values the creativity. And that's where we lean on her expertise and knowledge. We need to know to the whole goal is to get folks to that action that we want them to take. And we need to understand it's not just about putting something pretty. It's not about putting an art project out into the world. It's understanding truly what time, where are they? And the data informs all of those things and.

deeply what they need for sure.

Desiree Duncan (14:11.463)

And Anne, you come from a... sorry.

Anne DiNapoli Block (14:12.733)

I'm sorry to jump in. just have to say, a lot of folks don't know this, but Mindy and I have been talking art and science for 14 years, 15 years now. We have worked together for a very, very long time, previous to BPD. you know, like when she says we really do appreciate it, is really, you can't be, I always tell our folks this on our data.

Mindy Adams (14:13.65)

you

Mindy Adams (14:23.298)

At least, yeah.

Anne DiNapoli Block (14:38.735)

team, everyone thinks that all we do is science within our data solutions and analytics group, but there's so much art into the interpretation of the insights and how we even measure and what's really critically important with all those components that we have with this type of creative. So it's almost like left brain, right brain and the success of that drawing together and then having great creative partners that are really interested in knowing the performance

finding the right creative technologies to enhance the outputs, things like generative AI, things like dynamic creative optimization tools. That's why it's really amazing that we have all of that integrated here together.

Mindy Adams (15:25.208)

Yeah, and I think, as you said it earlier, I think all of those numbers and metrics, yes, they're numbers and metrics, but they represent real human need. They're inherently human, and it's understanding the dynamic of that that helps us bring it to life.

Desiree Duncan (15:38.835)

Yeah, I'm curious. So, Anne, knowing that you have more of a creator background as well, right? Has that kind of helped you think differently about the data in growing kind of your career in this direction?

Anne DiNapoli Block (15:54.213)

Yeah, it's funny you bring that up, Des, because a lot of folks also don't know I started my agency career in a creative department as a copywriter. was doomed from the get -go because I was a little too strategic and wanted to do much data and media involved. But all this to say, really, at the end of the day, when we think about creative performance for precision marketing,

fine tuning all of the design and the assets and the call to actions, the messages, putting yourself at the center of these consumers that we are trying to reach on these lists is what's really important. I think interpretation of that is really, you have to have the experience of like, these are the things that can change. And where we're going as well is really the blend

data, technology, and creative. think AI is changing the game. We are all creators with artificial intelligence in the right, meaningful ways, and that will continue to grow and expand rapidly. We've seen, I mean, just tremendous growth even in the last 12 months of what we can do with some of these tools.

Desiree Duncan (17:15.891)

Yeah, you're right. There's just so much personalization that we can be doing and the messaging. I'm kind of curious. Maybe both of you can share from your various perspectives. So the idea of how we're developing these more personalized messaging, but then also take it in consideration how are personas being thought throughout this process and how we're able to bring those to life.

Anne DiNapoli Block (17:45.039)

Yeah, we call them micro segments really often times because a lot of our clients come to the table with segmentations, right, that we have developed for them or that they have developed within their own walls with some of their marketing technology tools. they say, okay, based on our existing patients, these are, we, you know, we know that

mom persona who has these kids and this is their needs and their wants and their behaviors, right? When we think about precision and what makes it so different and really serving that direct, very personalized message, it's almost like we need to break down those segments to talk through uniquely what somebody's need might be, right? So it's a lot about mindset and having the right attributes to understand.

propensity mindset, behavioral needs that are just those additional layers. And we may find that they're within one segmentation, we can really carve out five or six different micro segments based on the health propensity need, right? A great example of that was within an orthopedic campaign, right? We talked through a middle -aged older.

Older middle -aged woman may have just experienced some type of injury that may draw her to an orthopedic care need, but what's going to turn the needle for her might be very different if she was on a boat rowing three days ago and is really seeking to get back in that boat as soon as possible.

versus she's been sort of dealing with this pain for a long time and it's just been immobile for several months and sort of just at that point where she's sick of it, right? And needs to seek care. So that's the craft that goes into utilizing the data in the right ways that I, and again, it's our team's job on our data solutions team to fuel those types of insights. And again,

Anne DiNapoli Block (19:52.133)

deliver as much this is what the data is telling us. These are the stories the data says. How do we bring that life creatively, which is, you I think a good pass through to Mindy for how her team thinks about that when they see those types of insights.

Desiree Duncan (20:08.509)

And are those types of insights, are they coming strictly from the, when I think of data, I oftentimes think of the numbers and the questions that are asked and it's all kind of recorded through a survey. And like, are they taking into consideration kind of a qualitative of the conversations or out of the, you kind of mentioned in. I'm just curious and Mindy, your thoughts on how the insights that you find from those you do implement into the creative.

Mindy Adams (20:36.044)

Yeah, it's critical. And that's the beautiful thing about precision versus a traditional media target when it's like you're talking to women in their 40s. The nuances and the way that we can get so personal to there's so many women in their 40s and they're all different and their motivators are extraordinarily different and personal. And it's a beautiful thing to really understand their heart, their heart space and mindset. And it's not just like women in their 40s, but we're talking about different audiences, different groups, different cultures. It gets really, really exciting.

Desiree Duncan (21:05.811)

Yeah, I'm so pumped for this because being in this work so often you'd land on like, okay, here are the six ads that we're gonna go to market with. And it's like, these couldn't possibly talk to everyone that needs to hear this message, right? So essentially, I mean, I'm just kind of curious. If you are doing this ortho campaign, what are the numbers of the different types of ads that can go out into market that are actually going to reach and speak to like, my God,

Mindy Adams (21:17.928)

No.

Desiree Duncan (21:34.707)

You're not you talking to me like I do need to check out this knee.

Anne DiNapoli Block (21:38.245)

Yeah, we talk about creative versioning and components for assets, right? Ideally, what we'd love to do is create a lot of components. What is a component? It depends on the channel, right? It's some type of message and video or image that we can blend the storylines together. And again, this is where the data comes in because deploying it in these dynamic, biddable

digital environments allows machine learning and algorithms to optimize them, right? So when we think about what a static asset may be, we almost like to like decouple, right? Variations so that we can show different folks or we can show, you know, different types of calls to action and, you know, blend them all together and be able to have that more.

personalized speak. You know, what I always say is like, if you separate six static assets or ads, and you have 12 components, right, think about all the versions we can create like up to 50 really more plus, right? Like, this is where the multipliers come in and does to your point, I think one of the areas of opportunity I see in healthcare is going

to that retail example, right? Which is like, how do we, you know, it's beautiful for folks like Amazon to have these product feeds and all these technologies to serve the right product ads to folks because technology enables thousands of ads with a click of a button. So what do we do to replicate that? Our clients invest in content libraries to deploy this type of work, right? Where we

have more and more variations so that, again, we are using dynamic serving technologies to be able to say, okay, this is the right exact ad for Des. This is the right exact ad for Mindy. And that is, I think, the biggest, you know, where we see the most return as well is really the investment in that type of strategy. How do you draw more success out of the campaigns and drive those volumes?

Desiree Duncan (23:57.904)

Yeah. Okay. So we're talking about our current state where we are and where the two of you have been through the years. So let's look towards the future. I want to hear and get excited about kind of what you're noodling on now, what you're working towards, or just even what is that pie in the sky dream that you would love to achieve with this kind of

Mindy Adams (24:20.34)

Yeah, I'll let Anne speak to machine learning and AI. She's much more articulate than me, but really pumped about the speed and the amount of things we can create with that. From an emotional perspective and an industry shift, I hope for our precision marketing the same thing that I hope for all of our marketing efforts. Right now, so many of our triggers and motivators are really, we're talking to people who are sick or broken or who need help to heal.

And I would love to see a shift. And we're already starting to, you said future state, we're dipping our toe into a lot more primary care messaging, but that trend to continue and for folks, for us to understand how we can get folks in the different mindset to stay well, stay healthy, get better in mind and physically as well. I think that we have a huge opportunity with Precision as that shift happens from sick care to well care industry wide

really pumped to start talking to those different sort of motivations.

Anne DiNapoli Block (25:17.071)

I love that one, Mindy. I think we have the ability, right? It's, you know, I think the changing focus of where healthcare trends, big picture are going is in preventative care and in wellness. And, you know, I think one campaign or service line we haven't done yet is with mental health awareness. And I think there's a huge plethora of opportunity here.

of thinking about how specifically this type of more personalized hyper -targeted messaging can make a really big impact in patient lives in that space. So I'm very excited about that. Now on the tech side, know, I mean, honestly, AI all the way, we at BPD talk about this extensively, Mindy and I do as well, but the fact that we have generative

at our fingertips now to create these content libraries and create these components for these assets is going to exponentially make us all better and smarter. And it doesn't take away from the human craft because that will always be needed, but what it does is it exponentially drives better outcomes, not only with the volume of assets that we can create.

but then the ways that we're able to learn from more messages and time. So our teams are dabbling in so many of those different tools on a daily basis. I think when you think about the marriage of how assets and content is created, but then how you activate it on the media side, again, with dynamic creative optimization tools or ad serving tools that allow for this.

component blended marriage of technology and data. That's where it gets really interesting and really fascinating to me. And I also think the other thing that might be on the horizon for Precision is new and unique spaces to deploy. We right now very much so lean into our addressable media channels. So digital, programmatic, banners,

Anne DiNapoli Block (27:33.925)

you know, programmatic video, CTV, social media, of course. But, you know, when we think about what is potentially happening in with the future state of the internet and a decentralized internet, those types of value exchange spaces, that's what I read at night. And that's my area of passion. So who knows where we'll be, you know, experiencing advertising marketing messages,

you know, again, it's more about how you are interacting with it at the end of the day, which is so exciting to think

Desiree Duncan (28:11.551)

Okay, as we wrap this up, would love for both of you to share what is just one takeaway that you would like folks to understand about what we're doing, we're learning, we're creating, and kind of what's for the future.

Mindy Adams (28:30.626)

Yeah, I think just the opportunity to reach someone one -to -one is so incredibly powerful. And it's literally one person at a time. We're talking about hundreds and thousands of assets, but it's just one action at a time. That's an incredible opportunity to connect people, especially in the work that we do, to help that they need, that we know they need. So that's what's so exciting to me about the power of precision marketing.

Desiree Duncan (28:54.591)

What about you, Anne?

Anne DiNapoli Block (28:55.169)

Yeah, I'm going to say one takeaway is think about this data work is not boring. You know, I think that's where again, I know that we are all data nerds at heart on this call, but I'd like to think Mindy is, I know she is. But you know, sometimes this work, it is high volume, high velocity, right? But the craft that goes into it is so critically important. So

That's, that would be my message for healthcare marketers is just get excited about this type of work, right? Like put your creative hat on, make it better, make it unique. You have a huge opportunity here to do amazing, impactful, measurable marketing strategies with this type of thinking. And it's, it's the last thing from boring. and you know, so I would just love to leave everybody with

Desiree Duncan (29:53.331)

Yeah, and I guess the way I think about this and hearing you all talk and your passion for it is I'm excited about the, even the opportunity to experiment, right? And even kind of, know, bust some myths about, you know, who people are or what resonates and connects with them and all of that good stuff. And so excited and can't wait to see more of what we are able to put out in market.

All right, so we will wrap this up. Thank you so much and Mindy for joining us here and Yeah, yeah it was and for all of you listening Thank you so much for joining in if there's something you want us to cover on the no normal show shoot us an email at no normal at BP healthcare comm Make sure you share the show with friends and colleagues and give us a review and ratings on iTunes and Spotify Preferably five stars all of that would be greatly appreciated

Mindy Adams (30:29.134)

Thank you, Des.

Anne DiNapoli Block (30:29.243)

So fun.

Desiree Duncan (30:51.965)

And until next time, don't ever be satisfied with the normal. Push that no normal y 'all and we'll talk to you next week.